Denis
MacShane is a former member of parliament for Rotherham. He served as an MP for
almost twenty years. Before becoming a politician he was a journalist and union
activist. He has publicly called for more working class members of
parliament.
During his
time in politics he held several posts including Parliamentary under-secretary
of state at the Foreign office, and Minister for Europe.
In 2012 he
resigned after MPs upheld a BNP complaint against him despite the fact he had gone through a 20-month police investigation and been cleared. Later
rightwingers asked the Director of Public Prosecution to charge him with fraud
and he refused to contest the charges so without a trial he was sent to prison
on Christmas Eve 2013. He spent his 7 weeks in prison in Belmarsh and Brixton
unlike other MPs found guilty of crimes who served their sentences in open
prisons.
This week
I had the opportunity to ask him some questions about working class MP’s and his
time in prison. My intention was to write an article but I decided to publish it
exactly as it was.
The
results are below;
In
July 2012 you were quoted as saying only people on minimum wage should make up
10% of parliamentary candidates ( I wrote a blog solely about that at the time).
Do you still feel that more working class MPs would improve the engagement of
“normal” voters?
All
voters are normal but Labour was created to put into parliament MPs who were
from non-elite, non-upper/middle class backgrounds. It would be healthy for
Labour to return to that tradition.
It
strikes me that very few elected politicians are truly working class, from local
councillors to members of parliament. Do you think that the whole system would
need to be changed to allow those shortlists or would be as simple as
instructing the party to pick only working class candidates?
I
recall the opposition to all W shortlists for Women only. I am sure there would
be similar opposition to all W shortlists for Workers only but I think it is
worth making an effort.
If
such shortlists were introduced, do you believe there would be sufficient
suitable candidates, considering the demands financially, mentally and
intellectually on candidates?
The
mental and intellectual demands on MPs are not that great. Most Labour MPs of
whatever background get a big rise in income income as the total MPs
compensation package especially when you add in employing wives and children,
(illegal in most democracies) and other allowances is very generous.
Do
you think the unions powers to put candidates forward should be limited or do
you believe that a trade union background is a good foundation for
politics?
Tricky.
Unions were the source of most working class MPs and as they have downsized in
terms of representing workers in the market economy and become mainly organisers
of workers whose income etc. comes from other workers who are taxpayers the
trade union route to becoming an MP if you are a worker has all but ended. In
Sweden, the prime minister is a metalworker so it can be done.
As
someone who was a member of Tony Blair’s cabinet do you agree that the Labour
party needs to aim for the centre ground and would you agree that Jeremy Corbyn
would be a disaster for the party should he win the leadership
race?
I
think holding the leadership contest this early is a disaster. We do not know
who will be PM in 2020. We do not know the issues that the public will want to
focus on. It would have been much better to wait a year, at least until after
the EU referendum and even Cameron’s departure and then see who has really made
an impression in parliament and face to face with the public.
Should
the party stick to its core beliefs and stick up for the poorest people in
society on issues such as the benefits bill, even if it means another decade in
opposition or should it just adopt the other side in order to win at any
cost?
The
duty of Her Majesty’s opposition is to oppose. But in the first year or so of a
new government it is going to get its business through. I remember the Tories
after 1997 or 2001 and they could not lay a finger on Labour. But this will
change. Don’t forget Cameron has the smallest majority of any Tory Prime
Minister in decades. Of course all money paid by the state for whatever reason
requires monitoring and reform. The tax credit system is basically a subsidy for
low-pay employers and imported from the US where income and wealth gaps are
massive. But right now Labour is not going to get many balls back across the
net.
If
not Corbyn who would you be nominating and who would you like as
deputy?
I
suspect any endorsement from me would be counter-productive. Labour’s best two
leaders in my lifetime in terms of winning power were Wilson and Blair who both
arrived as a result of the unexpected death of a leader. In Australia, Bill
Hayden, gave up the leadership of the Labour Party to Bob Hawke in 1983 because
Hayden had the stature to realize Hawke was a winner and Labour then had a long
period in power. That is a rare sacrifice. Everyone knew that Gordon Brown
despite his brilliance would not be a good PM. But he insisted on his right to
have the job and we know what happened.
Should
the party be choosing a leader who can lead the opposition but not necessarily
be Prime ministerial?
The
person who is chosen to lead a party of government in opposition has to be seen
as a future PM. Otherwise go and write for Comment is Free.
Two
days before Christmas in 2013 you were sent to prison for fraud. Considering the
judge commented that you made no personal gain from the offence, do you think
you were harshly treated and maybe made a bit of scape goat in the aftermath of
the expenses scandal?
No.
I made a mistake and you must pay for your mistakes and an example must be
made.
Are
you bitter that you were punished and your political career finished or you
relieved to be out of it and now able to say and do as you
please?
I
was planning to stand down in 2015 as it is sad to see all these MPs going on
and on into their 70s or even 80s and preventing a renewal of politics.
Although, it is out of the headlines now everyone knows who the MPs who were
maxing up their expenses profiteering, including many in the cabinet, and until
that generation retires there will be little chance of restoring the good name
of Parliament. Obviously after I was cleared by the police and CPS (after a very
thorough 20 month investigation unlike the superficial exchange of letters with
a Commons bureaucrat which MPs used to defenestrate me) I had hoped the matter
was over especially as some MPs who stood in judgment over me had made 6 figure
profits by manipulating the expenses scheme. It was the BNP which made the
complaint and they must have thought all their Christmases came at once. As
The Times wrote if I had used different forms to get reimbursement for
legitimate expenses there would have been no problem. After I was forced out of
the Commons and publicly destroyed I had thought the matter over. But the BNP
and other right-wingers wrote to the CPS and insisted I be charged. The cynicism
of the CPS and its highly political DPP as well as the blatant headline hunting
of a judge (all covered in my book Prison Diaries) came as no surprise because I
know the double standards of the establishment as I was once a transitory member
of it. Once the DPP said he would charge me on the lowest possible level I just
gave up as no jury would every listen to an MP’s side of the story and the DPP
knew that to charge was to convict and send me to prison.
Did
prison change your outlook on life and if so how have you changed since being
released?
No
more than being imprisoned in communist Poland in 1982 when caught and convicted
after running money to the underground Solidarity union. I learnt first-hand how
bad and useless British prisons which I did not know as an MP but other than the
odd bit of writing I cannot put that knowledge and my belief in the need for
prison reform to much purpose. While my trolls keep on having a pop and there
are the usual lazy journalists especially in Yorkshire (who incidentally have
never investigated or exposed the massive plundering of expenses by certain
local MPs) who cannot avoid using their rattlebag clichés if mentioning me it is
just a chapter in my life with its ups and downs that is firmly closed even if I
do miss Rotherham and friends there loads.
What
are you doing now?
I
am busier than ever. I have written two books and am working on a third on
modern anti-Semitism. I have 3 million words of daily diaries kept since
entering the Commons which may be of use to historians. I have been in Greece
reporting on the disastrous handling of the problems there by European
conservatives. I have written 30,000 words to update post-election my book
Brexit: How Britain Will Leave Europe to be published shortly by IB
Tauris (Hint, hint. Buy now at very low price!). I will campaign to keep us In
Europe and defeat Tory-Ukip-Mail-Murdoch isolationism. But I fear the referendum
may be lost and there will be considerable turmoil and hard political choices
ahead at a time when we have a weak and poorly led political class and even the
Financial Times is now owned off-shore
During
your time as Rotherham MP the appalling sexual abuse of hundreds of children
took place. I read that you stated previously that you were never approached by
any of the victims. were you aware that accusations had been made and that the
council and police were not doing enough to protect the victims?
MPs
are rarely if ever approached about crimes and neither I nor any of my staff
were ever approached by a victim, or a family or friend of a victim, or by an
intermediary with a complaint about any of these cases. I met with police
officers regularly who did know but did nothing and they said nothing to me. No
elected person or town hall official ever said anything to me, nor I think were
MPs in other towns or areas where similar abuse to that which happened in South
Yorkshire approached by victims. Child sex abuse and exploitation is a hidden
sickness of Britain. I was campaigning on trafficking and child teenage sex
slavery and had half a book written on it when I was forced out of the Commons
and one chapter would have dealt with the failure of the CPS and police to
enforce the law on prostitution of young people.
I
recently heard Alan Billing speak. He was incredibly frank about the challenges
facing South Yorkshire Police, with Hillsborough, Rotherham and Orgreave. Do you
support an investigation into the Orgreave violence by police officers similar
to the Hillsborough one or a full public enquiry?
I
think that is a fair request and I would like to see a full public inquiry into
why the SYP did nothing on Rotherham CSE. It is no use a chief constable who was
not in post at the time wringing his hands in front of rent-a-quote MPs on a
Commons committee. Every Rotherham District Commander, senior and junior police
officers in Rotherham since the mid-1990s must gave evidence of oath at a public
inquiry but the establishment will look after its own and I doubt if anything
will happen.
